Work Wonders
Back in late 2021, we decided that instead of chatting to each other about the challenges and triumphs of people management in small businesses, we should invite you to join the conversation. And the Work Wonders podcast was born! Managing people is serious business. We bring you all the latest, practical advice without the pain. The podcast is brought to you by Aster HR https://www.asterhr.com.au/ and your hosts are Angela Gauci and Susan Rochester
Work Wonders
S5 Ep 3: Special Guest - Bill Carson
In this episode we met Bill Carson, founder of Inspire Learning.
We had a great conversation where we discussed:
* The difference between empathy & sympathy
* Is the term ‘mental health’ good or bad?
* Practical ways to be empathetic as a manager
* And the new legislation around psychological safety
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Bill is giving Work Wonders listeners the first 2 chapters of his book "Safe Conversations for Work and Life" for FREE! Click on the link to our show notes to download.
You can find the show notes for this episode here
Would you like to submit a question to the show? Let us know on our website or via LinkedIn.
Brought to you by Aster HR, the Work Wonders Podcast is hosted by Angela Gauci & Susan Rochester and is recorded at Launch Pad at Western Sydney University.
All information or advice included in this podcast is general, has been developed as a starting point for your business, and should be tailored to your specific requirements. It should not be considered legal advice. We have made every attempt to ensure the accuracy and currency of this information at the time of recording. However, references to things like employment laws are subject to change. For specific advice relating to your business, please get in touch with us.
Welcome to the Work Wonders podcast brought to you by AstaHR, where we simplify the human side of business. I'm Angela.
Speaker 2:And I'm Susan. Let's dive into today's episode and find out what you've been wondering about.
Speaker 1:Today's episode is another interview. We interviewed Bill Carson, who's the founder of Inspire Learning. He is a lot of things an author, a speaker, facilitator, coach. He has been a counsellor himself and he is a mental health first aid trainer. Bill is an expert in the area of mental health and wellbeing and he had a lot of interesting things to bring to today's episode. We talked about the difference between empathy and sympathy and how you bring empathy into the workplace as a manager. He challenged us on how we think about mental health, even just the term mental health. So there's lots to unpack here in today's episode. In fact, we say it there that we may even have Bill back again to think about this some more, but I hope you get some value out of it. Let's get into it. This is the Work Wonders podcast. Hi, susan, how are you going Good? Thanks, angela. How are you Very good? Excited to talk to our guest today. We have in the studio Bill Carson. How are you going, bill?
Speaker 3:I'm very good. Hello Angela and hello Susan.
Speaker 1:Great to have you with us. Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 2:We've got lots to dive into today, so Bill, would you like to tell us a bit about your background and how you got to be doing what you're doing today?
Speaker 3:Yep. So right at the moment, I'm hugely passionate about the work that I do, which is predominantly focused on helping managers to be able to notice the signs if their team members are struggling in any way, or their colleagues, and then be able to have safe, person-centered conversations. A lot of managers get pretty concerned, particularly these days, that sometimes staff will weaponise mental health We'll talk about this later on which is a really interesting term that they use. So I wrote a book last year and run workshops around the whole concept of safe conversations in the workplace, and this topic also flows out into normal lives as well, because a lot of people will sometimes have had situations, but I'm sure it's not uncommon for some of your male business owner listeners to have had the experience where they've potentially been told by their partner you're not listening to me.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think we've probably all had that experience.
Speaker 3:And it's like, well, hang on, who would you say? It is Sorry about you, but I process what you've said and I want to solve your problem, to show that I love you and care about you. You know, one of the things I teach is how do you avoid that, and that's a big distinction between empathy and sympathy. And so I have run over 250 mental health first aid workshops, which really informs a lot of where this work comes from, because the mental health first aid is an exceptionally good accreditation to have. It's 12 hours and often a lot of business owners just kind of find that a bit too onerous to put in 12 hours. So the essence of that, in a way, is what we cover in safe conversations, how to notice the science and how to have the conversation.
Speaker 3:I've also done nearly 700 hours of lifeline volunteer telephone crisis support. So it's part of my giving and supporting, caring, and I know I specialise a lot in counselling and in resilience and wellbeing and you know the broader context of mental health education. So I've been doing this now for seven years and then my specialist area has originally started with a Bachelor of Science in metallurgy and I've worked in yes, I had to get from metallurgy to mental health.
Speaker 1:I was wondering the link there. Some of the letters are similar.
Speaker 3:There's probably a few metallurgists who could answer that question, actually. But I was always really interested in psychology and teaching when I was at uni and then I finished my studies, I finished my degree, I worked in technical and leadership roles for a lot of years. Then the teacher piece came out and I transitioned over into the training industry and I've done a lot of leadership training, customer service training, sales training, negotiation skills training, presentation skills and then, as I've transitioned out of that now into the whole kind of mental health, psychology, resilience, wellbeing area. So I'm in my icky guy at the moment. Do you know what icky guy is?
Speaker 2:I do, but it'd be better if you explained it.
Speaker 3:It's one of the Japanese terms for essentially being on purpose, and there's essentially four components to it. Compound number one is there's something that you love. Compound number two is that you're good at it. Compound number three is that the world wants it or other people want it. And number four you get paid for it.
Speaker 1:If I take you back there. You said there's a difference between empathy and sympathy. I'm wondering if you can give us a really simple distinction between the two.
Speaker 3:So the distinction between empathy and sympathy is, if we look at the Greek origin of the word, m means are into, and a patti or pathos is the Greek word for feelings. So empathy is into the feelings. So when we do empathy, we're actually making a decision connecting into the feelings of the other person. Now here's the really important distinction. If we look at the word sympathy, sympathy is S-Y-M-Sym and in the Greek that means similar, and then passing is feelings. So the big track with sympathy, or what happens with sympathy, is where, essentially, sympathy is similar feelings. You know I've got similar feelings. Now here's what we've got to be so careful of is that, let's say, for example, angela, you said I'm just kind of frustrated a little bit at the moment. You know, I'm really kind of concerned about you know, my mum. She's kind of going through some health issues and I'm sort of worried about it. Now, if then I do sympathy and I've got a similar and I want to tell you about similar feelings, then I'll say something like, oh yeah, I've had the same situation going on as well, and then immediately becomes not about you anymore, becomes about me, making an ice statement about what's going on for me. And this is a big problem with the way we express sympathy. So I call sympathy self-pussy. In other words, we're expressing our self-feelings and so a better skill to do is, let's say, we go back to the scenario where you just see, you know I'm struggling with my mum, a bit concerned about her. Then if I do empathy and I reflect your feelings, then I'll have my feelings but I put a lid on them when I talk about me. I'll then reflect back. You know that must be pretty tough for you at the moment and you know how are you going through that. You know how's it going for you and then so if I'm holding that sort of gentle you conversation that's focused on you, you can stay with your own feelings and talk about what's going on for you and it doesn't then get common-deed by me doing an eye. So this is a really important thing that I teach in my workshops and we just covered in the book.
Speaker 3:One of the big challenges that you know managers will have is this whole issue of you know a team member who is underperforming. Now, in the absence of, when there's just no awareness and no care around mental health, what will happen is you get fundamentally bad parenting 101. So bad parenting 101 is when the child does you know some dodgy child behavior and if the parent doesn't make separation it's like bad behavior, bad child. So when you know fundamentally good parenting 101 is okay I don't like the behavior from attention in the supermarket but I still love you and so over time you know when the child gets to recognize that there's a separation of behavior from who they are, then that's really important. But if parents don't make that distinction, then you know they're in bad behavior with that person. So the same thing will happen in corporate or in, you know, just in the workplace. You know bad behavior, your behavior goes down, bad person.
Speaker 3:And then therefore will performance manage you? Well, if we think about just life as a human, there's lots of things that will impact us. You know, if everything is going well, you bring your whole 100% to work and you just love your work and you're committed to it ideally. But if you've got then stuff that relationship challenges or, let's say, money issues, you know really sort of difficult to deal with. You know you might have grief that has been unresolved, someone very close to that you've lost and you're carrying that grief and sadness, then those things will impact on our performance.
Speaker 3:And so if a manager then has the awareness to notice, you know, the changes that are taking place, either two things will happen A lot of the start getting more grumpy and they start getting more angry and complaining, which is their externalized stress reaction, or they internalize and they withdraw and they go into themselves and I can't do this, I'm not good enough, and then they, you know, their performance, will drop. So, for a manager, first of all we want to notice the changes and then, rather than be judgmental, it's like oh, here we go again, like ask us to be able to sort of very gently and appropriately connect in and have the conversation. That's what I teach around the acronym of safe your self-awareness, being aware yourself that you're in a good place to have these conversations. The A is acknowledge and ask, the F is focus on listening, and then the E is in power. So there's a really all set of skills.
Speaker 2:How did you get into your business? Sometimes it's because you're great at a particular thing or you've got a passion for something and know that you can do a little better than what other people are already doing. Now that you're in business, you've discovered there's a lot more to it than just having the right skills. Especially when you've hired a team, you might have learnt the financial skills that you need because you've had to, basically, but where do you go to develop the HR and the leadership skills that you need? If you're feeling overwhelmed in managing people and all the other things that come with running a business, we can help you. We'll guide you through the skills you need to feel more confident in leadership. Go and check out the coaching page on our website or schedule a call with us at asterharvecomau. Now it's back to the episode. So, bill, you know we've talked about the difference and also the fact that you know there's new expectations on managers to have those conversations. What do you think stops managers from being able to have that empathetic conversation with their staff members?
Speaker 2:You mentioned earlier weaponising, being afraid that employees might be weaponising their mental health, whatever that means. Maybe you can define what you mean by that, what you know, what people you've spoken to mean by that and what other things, if there are, that are stopping people from having those conversations?
Speaker 3:First of all, one having the awareness so that if, let's say, for example, a team member said like why didn't you get you know that report done, or you know what's kind of happening, and they respond with well, I've got anxiety, I'm feeling anxious. Now some managers not a huge number, they immediately would go into judgement like here we go, we're going to pull the mental health card on me, and that's not the case at all. You know. It's like OK, settle down. So the reaction, that stress reaction externalised, would be, you know, do take that immediate potential reaction. So settle down and then, just potentially, for example, ask the question so like, tell me a little bit more.
Speaker 3:Like the brain is just another body part, you know, and this is no different to someone saying, you know, in a different context oh, look, you know, I've got a pain in my tummy. I think I might have I don't know some colon issues. All you do is you just ask the question so like have you been to the doctor? Oh, no, no, no, I was looking at, you know, google, I'm talking to my friends and I think I've got colon issues, I think I've got anxiety. Well, you just generally ask the question. So do you think it would be useful to actually go to the doctor and actually get support and help for what you're going through. And so one of the things I want to really encourage people to understand is that we've got to take all the woo-woo out of the whole kind of mental health thing. The brain is just another body part, so the thing we've got to understand is that mental and emotional challenges that we have around relationships and around you know money concerns they're very real and we need help around those sorts of things.
Speaker 2:What I'm hearing behind what you're saying, bill, is also that when somebody tells you something, they're not expecting you to necessarily solve it. So that example that you gave about you know the colon issue or you know any other physical health issue if someone discloses that to you, it's not like they're expecting you to have the solution for it, and that's the same, I imagine, with most mental health or psychosocial issues in the workplace. It's a matter of well, this is what's going on for me and then needing someone to listen and make suggestions that might be helpful, but not actually have to have the solution right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly because you know the trap that manager brain has to really just be mindful of is manager brain is just magnificent in running a business, managing the money, the cash flow, the orders, the marketing, etc. So when a ten-member colleague, when they've got things going on for them personally, then you shut down manager brain, like don't have an opinion, and try to solve the problem. Just connect with them at the empathy level, and then what I teach in the workshop is then how do you actually, you know, keep the conversation gently focused on the other person, helping them to create their own awareness?
Speaker 1:It seems like there's this sort of fear or a bit of a stigma around that term mental health and sort of like a fear of the unknown. But I know, bill, that you actually like to describe or champion the word mental health in a very different way. Would you like to tell us about that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely so, because you know I can see you as an Angela. If I looked at Angela and I said Angela has physical health, then essentially what we're implying that the adjective, the implied adjective, that's silent is that their physical health is good. Now what's creeping into all over the world? It's just everywhere. All they've got mental health. Now mental health, as defined by the World Health Organization, is just a really good thing.
Speaker 3:Mental health is positive relationships. You know I'm mentally healthy. You know I'm well, I'm thinking well. I think what we've got to also include is mental and emotional. No one ever had thoughts without feelings, like if you're in a good place, you're feeling good. You know you just don't have positive, happy thoughts. You actually have feelings attached to that. If someone is struggling, let's say, with some physical health challenges let's say, for example, the tummy or the lower back, or you know, at the moment I've got a sore hip that's playing up on me then I've got some physical health challenge and I think you know we can use three words. You could use physical health issue or physical health problem, or physical health challenge, and then it's got the same thing with mental health either problem issues or challenges. What do you think is best of those three words to use.
Speaker 1:I like the word challenge.
Speaker 3:Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1:That sort of comes out at me because I think, well, most of us, the challenge is something that can be overcome.
Speaker 2:And it's yeah, exactly. It seems to indicate that there could be overcome.
Speaker 3:Exactly, and this is, I really think this is incredibly important, you know, because we don't want to be stigmatizing this whole thing. I mean, challenges vicariously imply, you know, that whole idea of either going up a mountain or whatever.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 3:It implies some part of getting help and support, getting resources pushing through. I'm going to make it that kind of thing and I think that's really important.
Speaker 1:So I think the whole empathy conversation, or having that empathy and approaching those conversations in that way, as opposed to sympathy as you were saying, that's quite challenging in itself, isn't it?
Speaker 1:I can use that word again, but you know, managers are often, some that I've spoken to can be quite afraid of that situation, and it's not the reaction. Like you say. It's not the first thing that you go to. Have you got, you know, a tip that you could share for managers that might be feeling, you know, listening to what you're saying, and yeah, I want to, I want to be better at that, but what can I do? It's not, it doesn't feel comfortable. I'm unsure what to do. I don't want to say the wrong thing. Have you got a tip that might be helpful for them to think of instead?
Speaker 3:A starting point is to understand, yes, that there is uncertainty in that potential conversation because you know they've potentially not had it before. There's fundamentally an element of trust involved and so, again, one of the other things I talk about in the book is and all the workshop is is that there's three levels of you know, safe conversations and these types of conversations. So level zero is where you're not noticing any signs. So it's really important to just be building relationship on a regular basis, so with yourself, angela and Susan. You know how you're traveling, how you're going.
Speaker 3:And then if you happen to notice, like, say, if I was working with you guys regularly, if I happen to notice you know I sort of notice things are a little bit different with you, then being very gentle and connecting in with you, know how you're traveling, angela, and then you know, when that relationship is already well established, then I'd say, look, I'm kind of noticing that your normal easygoing and bullying self has kind of changed a little bit and just wondering if there's anything that's going on for you. You know, do you have the appropriate help and support and resources? You see, the thing that the distinction right there is that I haven't done the classic manager thing of I. What can I do for you?
Speaker 2:Exactly, I like that.
Speaker 3:You know. To come back to your point, angela, you know what's the absolute number one thing, and that is this intention to switch from an eye focus to a you, and I can say that, but it takes a bit of work and practice to actually get to do that.
Speaker 1:well, we hope you're enjoying the guest on our podcast today. Keep listening for a special offer they have for you coming up very soon. And now it's back to the interview.
Speaker 2:What I can see is the big strength in that approach of saying you know, I've noticed that things have changed and you're getting the help that you need, or you know, do you have the resources that you need? Or a question along those lines is it you might actually get more information from the person from that, rather than going I've noticed you're not performing or whatever. What's wrong? Yeah, more than likely you'll get nothing. Everything's fine, True. True People just shut down because they're feeling like they're being attacked in a way.
Speaker 2:Bill, you said trust before, so it's about the hard work building that relationship. Yeah, we've got everyone on your team.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the part of having that psychologically safe workplace is all that preventative work, isn't it? So that stuff beforehand, of building trust, having an open dialogue with people and having that environment that welcomes discussions about these things, and a safety? To do that with that reprimand.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and you know this is where, as we, you know, just segue the conversation a little bit around that new legislation that's coming into the workplace around psychosocial hazards.
Speaker 3:You know, my fundamental observation I've done a lot of work and study and research into this area is inviting managers to move from a command and control method of managing their people to one where they're more empowering, and this is a global problem. So this new standard ISO 4503, guidelines for Managing Psychosocial Advers in the Workplace it's all over the world and the problem that they cause is, if the managers don't have the awareness around their own crankiness, you know, because they get stressed and they're dealing with a team member who's also dealing with a lot of stuff that they're struggling with, those two clash together and what's gonna happen is the employees gonna go. I'm out of here, I'm a psychological injury, and the psychological injuries are going up at 22% per year and they cost around 80 to 100,000 bucks a person. And it doesn't have to be that way. They learn to adjust their leadership style and it's not that we're going all soft, it's that we're getting more intelligent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, emotionally.
Speaker 2:I like it.
Speaker 3:And just where the manager has to do a work on themselves. Because you have to be mature enough to be able to empower the people that you're with to be the best that they can be. And maybe you know, show up and be just familiar with your own vulnerability, your own, you know weaknesses and so forth, and just allow other people to kind of come into the space and do what they need to do. That's, you know, one of the big ultimate outcomes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what we aim for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it can only be a good one to come right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, you know, years ago workplaces were really unsafe physically, and I've, you know, worked in manufacturing, you know, for a lot of years, and at one place we were working at we knew it was incredibly dangerous for folks to be flying around and then someone had to be run over and lost his leg and it's like, oh okay, now we're going to put up you know, my large race of wargaria.
Speaker 3:So that was just like, really, really just a kind of very, very basic attitude. And then it was always incredibly difficult to focus on safety. It's like, oh, you're too soft, et cetera, et cetera. And because the claims were getting way out of hand, then the legislation came in that basically said hey, look you, senior leader, if you're found to be negligent, you're going to put up a lot of money. And it's like, oh, okay, now we'll do something.
Speaker 3:So what you have now is, in most organizations, zero harm, absolute focus on safety. Now, as a consequence of that, there are and you can do the numbers but there used to be around 300, 400, 500 men because they're the larger, the ones that die on work sites, men who would die, who'd be killed on work sites. Now the numbers are around about 100 to 120. So if you do the numbers over the last 10 years, there's a good two to 3,000 men that are still alive, that go home to their families as a consequence of that legislation being introduced. Now it's difficult for businesses, because they deal with governments. Just it's like, oh, here we go, now we've got another whole bunch of imposition, but what we want to get to a place is where we've got zero harm in the whole context of psychological, social as well.
Speaker 2:And that would save lives too.
Speaker 1:I love your comparison between the physical and the mental, because really I know mental we can't sort of see it, touch it all of that, but it's still fundamentally just as important, just the same sort of thing. So, bill, I feel like we could keep talking about this for quite a number more minutes or hours.
Speaker 1:We could Quite a big topic and it's lovely to hear your passion to make it such a positive change in workplaces, but I wonder if there is maybe one thing might be hard to put it into just one but one thing that you'd like our listeners to take away from today that might make their workplaces a bit more psychologically safe or a healthy workplace.
Speaker 3:So I think the fundamental theme is for managers to be thinking well of their people, and it comes out of this theme of gratitude.
Speaker 3:Gratitude is incredibly important because if we don't do gratitude, what happens is, from a neurobiological perspective, the left hemisphere of the brain is generally oriented towards, first of all, goals, and then when we don't get our goals and outcomes met, then we get stressed. And if you only live fundamentally left brain, then you're aiming for things got to get loads on the truck, got to get the invoice, got to get the marketing and you get stressed out and you're never in a really happy place. That's where a lot of people live, unfortunately, and then so what happens is when we do things like gratitude and mindfulness and those sorts of things, what we do is we come into the present moment and we access more of the right hemisphere. Neurobiologically, gratitude helps us focus on the things that we do have rather than, if we don't do gratitude, all we ever think about is what we don't have. So being thankful, thanking your team members, thanking your staff, thanking your partner.
Speaker 3:When I was very young, I struggled with this because I was a boss in my late 20s and I'd have these older guys working for me and I'd thank them that they had done a great job. No, immediately turn around and say when do I get a pay rise?
Speaker 2:So don't be too thankful.
Speaker 3:Exactly, and so it just shut me down because I didn't know how to handle it. And this comes from people who have grown up and never really received much appreciation, so they immediately think, if you give me appreciation, then you're going to give me some money.
Speaker 3:If I was handling that today, I'd say mate, you're doing a great job, love your work, love your attitude. And pay rises come later. So we just want to be acknowledged. One of the greatest gifts I learned about many years ago is to actually see in somebody and actually reflect back and tell them some gifts, that they have something about them that is unique to them, and I would be. Hey, andrew, I really love the way that you're so caring of everyone in the team. My concern sometimes is that caring that prevents us from making decisions, because we've come to kind of got to get everybody on board. So what do you think you can do about being more caring and also make decisions faster? Yeah, you know what I mean. Yeah, that's great. So, rather than me getting angry at you and doing it, make a decision that's really practical.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 2:That's great Bill. So if our listeners want to get better at all this, I'm sure you provide a lot more information, both in book and in workshops. Would you like to tell us a bit more about those?
Speaker 3:Yes, the book Safe Conversations for Work and Life is available on Amazon or on my website, inspirelearningau. It's a great book.
Speaker 1:I can attest to that. I've read it myself yeah. I definitely recommend going and having a read of that.
Speaker 3:Fantastic, thank you, no problem. And then you know, books are a great start, you know, and so doing the workshop, safe Conversations Skills Workshop, which is a three-hour workshop which I really encourage. On super fashion, I think that every manager on the planet you know needs to have the skills. It really doesn't take away from all your task-focused skills. It adds to and enhances your people engagement skills. So I run workshops for either groups of individuals or for a team of managers working together, et cetera.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. I'm really looking forward to put all those details in the show notes. So anyone listening, please go and check out Bill's details and jump into that workshop and learn some more and hone those skills.
Speaker 2:So, bill, thank you for your time today. We've really got a lot out of it. So much for our listeners to absorb and digest, and relates really well to some of the other episodes that we've already provided and all have planned. But thanks for your time, bill.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much, susan, and thank you Angela. Thank you, bill, my pleasure.
Speaker 1:Lovely. I'm sure we can even have you come back to the podcast another time and we can unpack this some more because, like we say, it's such a big, big big topic Big big topic. So Thanks for listening to the Work Wonders podcast brought to you by Asta HR. Click the subscribe button now to never miss an episode, and if you'd like to continue the conversation with us, you can find us over at AstaHRcomau. See you in the next episode.
