Work Wonders
Back in late 2021, we decided that instead of chatting to each other about the challenges and triumphs of people management in small businesses, we should invite you to join the conversation. And the Work Wonders podcast was born! Managing people is serious business. We bring you all the latest, practical advice without the pain. The podcast is brought to you by Aster HR https://www.asterhr.com.au/ and your hosts are Angela Gauci and Susan Rochester
Work Wonders
Guest Interview - Martin Wren, CEO of NOVA Employment
It’s interview time again!
In this episode, we spoke with Martin Wren, CEO of Nova Employment and it was a great discussion. You will not be able to walk away from this episode without feeling inspired!
Nova Employment is a Sydney based disability employment service. They've supported the vocational aspirations of young people with disability for well over 30 years.
Martin opens up about his own personal experience, and gives great examples of what NOVA have done to support their clients and employers that they've worked with.
If you've never hired someone with a disbility before, Martin helps simplify that, giving practical ways to take the first step and inspiring us that it's actually no different than employing anybody else.
You can find the show notes for this episode here
Would you like to submit a question to the show? Let us know on our website or via LinkedIn.
Brought to you by Aster HR, the Work Wonders Podcast is hosted by Angela Gauci & Susan Rochester and is recorded at Launch Pad at Western Sydney University.
All information or advice included in this podcast is general, has been developed as a starting point for your business, and should be tailored to your specific requirements. It should not be considered legal advice. We have made every attempt to ensure the accuracy and currency of this information at the time of recording. However, references to things like employment laws are subject to change. For specific advice relating to your business, please get in touch with us.
Welcome to the Work Wonders podcast brought to you by Asta HR, where we simplify the human side of business.
Speaker 2:I'm Angela and I'm Susan, let's dive into today's episode and find out what you've been wondering about.
Speaker 1:In today's episode we have another guest for you. We interviewed Martin Wren, who's the CEO of Nova Employment. Nova Employment is a Sydney-based disability employment service that's supported the vocational aspirations of young people with disability for well over 30 years. Martin is well known for speaking out on the rights of young people with disabilities to find and sustain employment. Our conversation with Martin was a really great one. He actually is open and talks to us about his own personal experience, and he gives us some really great examples of what they've done to support their clients and employers that they've worked with. If you're interested in working with Nova Employment to find a wonderful young person with a disability for your workplace, then you can do that and there's lots of benefits available to you. Martin believes the secret to ensuring there are jobs for each person with a disability is about matching individual aspirations and the abilities to an available opportunity. He helps simplify that for us and show us how it's actually no different than employing anybody else in your business, and Martin even gave us some tips on how to get started if you've never employed someone in your team with a disability. He even inspires us as he tells us a little more about the Focus on Ability Film Festival, so watch out for that. Look, there's a lot in this episode and I hope you get a lot out of it. So let's get started.
Speaker 1:This is the Work Wonders podcast. Hi Susan, hi Angela. Well, look, we've got another interview today, which we always love. Today, we'd love to welcome to the studio Martin Wren from Nova Employment. Hi, martin.
Speaker 3:Good morning all and good morning to your listeners.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Well, we're very excited to have you here with us today, and one of the first things we always like to ask our guests is can you tell us a little bit about what's led you to what you're doing today?
Speaker 3:Probably sins in a past life. I've been working in disability employment for 34 years, mostly because no one else had had me, but also because I find the rewards far outweigh the cost and I think in relation to how should you see it work? Well, it's work, not play, but it doesn't mean you can't get a lot of personal satisfaction and a lot of fun along the way.
Speaker 2:It's a good way to look at it. It's a great attitude, isn't it yeah?
Speaker 3:I don't always maintain it. I get grumpy.
Speaker 2:No, none of us are perfect in that regard.
Speaker 1:I don't think there's many people I'd speak to nowadays that could say that they've been in a job or an industry even for that long.
Speaker 3:It's really good.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you've got lots of experience to share.
Speaker 3:I'm coming towards the tail end of my career. Looking back over it, it has been the best fun. I've met some people who are truly inspirational, in the sense that you will remember them and their attitude for all time.
Speaker 2:And Nova Employment itself has been a stayer really, when we look at disability employment 34 years Exactly.
Speaker 3:Funnily enough, the same amount of time as me. Funnily enough, funnily enough, the same amount of time as me, funnily enough.
Speaker 2:But when we look at that sector, there's been brands that have come and gone over that time, but over employment is still around.
Speaker 3:And I think and this would be probably for others to judge but we've maintained a dedication to improve the lot of people with disability rather than improve the lot of the organisation, necessarily.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that makes a big difference and I know, working in HR, I've come across people who work for you in the field, supporting their clients with disability. I'm not sure do you call them clients?
Speaker 3:Clients will do Job seeker, or I prefer Dave or Steve.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think that's always preferable and they're as dedicated as you are.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, that's because work is so important. Yes, there's so many things revolve around it, like if you're at a barbecue and you're meeting someone for the first time, a great conversation piece is well, tell me what you do for work, whether we want to or not. When that person answers, there's a ladder that goes off in our head and decides where you're going to put that person. So if we're at a party and you asked the question and I say I'm a rocket scientist, I will have a certain status associated with that. When the next person says I'm a doctor, you've got to decide now whether that's more important than rocket scientist. But almost any answer you can come up with is better than unemployed.
Speaker 3:Because, unemployed has such stigma. It's a dreadful sticky label that, once you get on it, when you answer the question by saying I'm between jobs at the moment or I'm looking for a suitable opportunity, or whatever you're using, people go, go bludger.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And for people with disability it's sort of a double whammy. You've got enough things to overcome as it is, without an attitude in society that says unemployed people clearly aren't trying hard enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so true. What I'd like you to expand on, if you could, is the importance of employment for someone with a disability, like what a difference that makes to their lives.
Speaker 3:Well, it's enormous. My father passed away a couple of years ago and before he died I realised that actually I was never going to have an identity of my own. I was always going to be Dave's boy and when I had kids I thought I might get it then, but they somehow became that Mary's dad and I never actually became that, which I think shows you the importance of work. People say we'll say to you when someone passes away, what did your loved one do when we're kiddies? People will come up to us and say when you're grown up, what would you like to be? So your very being can be tied up with your job, with the roles that you occupy. Because you're employed and I think that probably I can't even it's more likely to have positive or negative benefits for you than actually having a career.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, I'm just going to jump in with a personal story. Our daughter, sophie, has a moderate intellectual disability and she has been employed now for eight years with one organisation and that was set up through a disability employment service, not NOVA. But we've noticed how much she's grown in her confidence in her ability to speak to people and it's given her a much wider network and independence that she wouldn't have had without having that job. And I'm sure you've seen it thousands of times over Martin.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, but it still gives me a thrill. I'm still excited by it because I know, and you will know as a mum of a person with disability, that this is a cruel world sometimes and having something to show that's very positive is really important. I don't want to get onto a hobby horse of mine, but half of the disability that we see in people is because they've been bullied.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:They've been bullied while they're at school because they're a slow learner or they have some physical impairment or whatever it may be, and it shuts those young people down. Yeah, being in work in an environment where, because things happen to people with disability in their and the Royal Commission highlighted this, the recent Royal Commission Things happen to people with disability that would never happen in the general community without someone going to jail.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly that's terrible.
Speaker 3:I had a young man come to see us. Oh, it would be now probably the best part of 10 years ago and he was not a great communicator. He'd much rather be quiet and be left alone than to speak about his views or his opinion. But anyway, we introduced him to other participants in the program we were running at the time and it was a long time After probably the best part of the year. We began to have some more confidence and trust in each other and we began to share things and this quiet boy became far more energized by life and by his communication with others. He got the power of speech back His employer, because we got him into a fairly humble job a great starting point for you 19,. Take the humble job. So he took the humble job and the environment was a warm and caring business and he began to become more and more integrated. And then, the next thing we knew, his employer said I'm thinking of promoting him, am I allowed to? Yeah, fabulous. So of promoting him.
Speaker 2:Am I allowed to? Oh, fabulous.
Speaker 3:So we gave him permission. This young man has great. I see him three or four times a week because we are paths across. He works not far from the Nova St Mary's office and I'll get away and he'll stop for a chat sometimes or if he's late for work Not that he's late very often, but if he is late for work he'll rush past. But that boy now, I haven't betrayed any secrets about him. He has a young lady in mind. She's not averse to his inquiry.
Speaker 3:And I am sure they will make a great couple.
Speaker 1:Now, if he's listening, I won't give his name away, but just ask the kid that's a wonderful story and I bet that's not, like Susan said, not the only one that you've got but, Martin, what's um in all the work that you've done with employers that are employing your wonderful clients that have a lot of ability? What's one piece of advice you would give to employers in creating that really welcoming environment?
Speaker 3:Just be yourself. People will say to us not so much these days, because integration and inclusion is far more common but people will say to us what should I say to Mary? And I'll always go. Well, I have no idea. What would you say to anyone? Test the water by just having a normal conversation.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 3:I should take you back in time, though. Let's go back in time 34 years Okay, sure, 34 years and I had been teaching in the TAFE in Western Sydney in the intellectual disability department, and I saw some fabulous candidates I felt fabulous candidates come through the TAFE system. But TAFE wasn't set up to actually go and find work or help people with disability into employment. We just gave them people the skills that they had to parlay into work. I thought I can do better than this. All I've got to do is get to talk to someone for five minutes and that business will share my enthusiasm. So I went down into Mulgawa Road, out to the industrial area out there First building I came to looked all right and I'm thinking well, what are we going to have here? Packing, dispatch, labouring, those sorts of things? My boys can do that. They can do that easily. I went into the organisation and they've gone bust. So I don't think I'll hurt anyone by saying Campbell's Cash and Carry.
Speaker 2:Oh yes.
Speaker 3:But in I went and I found the guy that I thought was the boss and I gave him my story. And I found the guy that I thought was the boss and I gave him my story and I told him about what a wonderful opportunity my boys offered him and his business. Anyway, I explained what I wanted and he said to me now you wait a minute, here, I'm just going to get someone else. And he went away and he came back with another man and they said tell us your story. Okay. So I told them the story again the second time and they laughed. They laughed at the thought that these two young men, both of whom had Down syndrome, could possibly be employees, let alone get paid for it.
Speaker 1:That's awful.
Speaker 3:So I learned, though, that people didn't necessarily share my enthusiasm. That must have been a hard lesson, and I didn't enjoy their sense of humour, so we had to come at it from a different way so that both of us had our needs met. Anyhow, we've got those two young men into work. They have a great career. They're still with us. From time to time they'll need new jobs, but they've been valuable employees for three or four employers over the last 30 or 40 years.
Speaker 1:As I hear you saying that, Martin, it seems disappointing that that original employer that laughed really missed out on two great employees.
Speaker 3:I think he damned them to hell and that's why they went bust.
Speaker 1:Let's go with that, let's go with that. But on that thought, what's a piece of advice you would give to employers that are thinking well, maybe I could start thinking differently about who I'm recruiting and how I'm accessing these people and being more open in my practices of how I distribute the workout to my team. You know what's something that you would say to someone who's thinking about those things?
Speaker 3:Understand how you feel. I've seen many, many people felt the same. What you'll find is that you will have someone who is not necessarily fail-proof but no one is, is not necessarily always motivated, but then who is and who brings to your workplace a whole bunch of other skills that you will find add value and build value into your business, not just for you as the employer, but for your customers and for your co-workers. Your business will be better off having a conscious program of recruiting people with disability as part of your normal hiring mix.
Speaker 1:Martin, I often think about recruitment. When managers are thinking about, oh well, I need this job done or that job done, they often think about, well, I need these qualifications or this much experience or this mix of work. But when you said skills there, it made me think about how would you encourage managers to stop thinking about what those traditional means are of how a job is made up or what quals that you need, but really thinking more deeply about the skills and the strengths that a person brings to the organisation and maximising those?
Speaker 3:Well, I would think that's probably a really important consideration, and if you can get the answer right, it will serve you well, not just now, but for years to come, for the rest of the life of the business. What skills do people with disability bring in a general sense? Well, they've had to cope with things that can present physical barriers, things that can present emotional barriers, and they've developed skills and coping skills that make them problem solvers. Like I can't do up my own shoelaces, and I genuinely can't. So I made a little jig that puts the laces in the right place and I can do my shoelaces up. So, instead of it taking me 15 minutes of frustration, I actually time myself and can get it done in a minute.
Speaker 1:That's great, good example. Yeah, I think one of the things that employers, it might stop them initially and I'm especially thinking of people that, like in your example there of managers who laughed at that person or maybe anything in between that it might stop them while they're thinking, oh, do I need to make this modification, or does that mean they can't do this part of the job, or will I say something wrong, or all these sorts of concerns. I think we often say managers don't do this part of the job, or will I say something wrong, or all these sorts of concerns. I think we often say managers don't set out to do the wrong thing. You know, people want to do the right thing.
Speaker 2:Oh no.
Speaker 1:It's a fear of going. Am I going to do or say the wrong thing or not do enough?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've found there is very, very little discrimination in the workplace. People talk about it. What you get are inexperience, sometimes a lack of experience, and fear. And I don't mean that, as in you know, quaking with fear because some who is that chap, jack Nicholson's coming after you with a, you know, but fear of just saying the wrong thing. Yeah, what do you say to a blind person? Hopefully, for your sake, he's got a dog because you can pat the dog rather than speak with the person.
Speaker 3:And it's also the fear of what if it doesn't work out. So you go home at the end of this day and you say to your wife and the kids I did a really great thing today. I've hired a person who's deaf or whatever else it may be, and you celebrate your success. But it doesn't work out, and it doesn't always work out. It would be dishonest to say that sometimes there's not the best match been made or it didn't turn out the way anybody thought it might. But you just have to jump in. I interview people for part of Nova's promotional program and the common theme of their response to similar questions is just do it. Once you've done it once, you can do it twice. Once you've done it three or four, you'll find you've got a really valuable addition to your team. And there'll be some things they can't do, but there are some things I can't. It doesn't make me a bad employee, exactly.
Speaker 1:Whether you call a person disabled, you know disabled or not, I think we all have strengths I hate the word weaknesses but we all have things that we're great at and things we're not so great at, no matter our physical or intellectual abilities. So I think it's yeah, it's important to think about it like what you just said there, us thinking, you know, everybody does things that way. Any person in a workplace can be great at one particular part of their job or not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sorry, I was just laughing because I was thinking of my Pilates teacher yesterday and somebody said to her I don't know how you do this job. You know doing these classes, one after the other. And she just turned around and said well, I don't know how you do your job, so we've all got our own strengths. It's all about perspective.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. If you're going to judge on the basis of negativity or things people can't do, everybody will pull up short. I can't grow hair I've tried but none and a hundred other things. When I was a young school kid, one of the school reports I got said Martin needs to concentrate. I can't be honest and say if someone was to do a report on me now, probably Martin needs to out. 60 years later he never quite managed it.
Speaker 2:I'll put my hand up for that one as well. We hope you're enjoying the Work Wonders podcast, because we started it for people just like you. We're here to answer questions that you might have about employing people every step of the way through, before you start looking to when they need to leave. You can submit a question for the podcast via our website. Just go to the podcast page at astrohrcomau. We look forward to seeing what questions you're going to ask. Now let's get back to the episode, Martin. So if our listeners you know if there's someone listening to this and they're thinking, well, yes, I'd like to do it, but where do I start? What's the very first step I need to take?
Speaker 3:Look, I'd rather bring it or get on the web and find out for employment. We're not hidden. And the thing to remember. There are a couple of things that are important. First of all, the service itself is free, so it doesn't cost anything.
Speaker 3:The people you'll be working with that come from my team have generally been doing their job for many years. They've got some great skills and it is not in our interest to put the wrong person into your business. It's not in our interest to hammer away a square peg until it fits a round hole. We will say, look, we've picked up that this job really isn't for the person we thought it was. They're not going to be happy. They can see that You're not going to be happy. We can see it. Let's promise you we will find them another job. Promise you we'll try harder now we know more about your business. Yes, and do everything we can to stay friends. So stuff doesn't always work out. Nova's strike rate is something like 74%, which I'm pretty proud of, but it means that 26% of the people we see it doesn't work out.
Speaker 3:But that's the same for everyone. Yeah, I mean, over the years I've hired some people who really I don't want to use the expression wouldn't work in an iron lung, but convinced me through a bad day for me, that they'd be good for my business. They weren't. It was a mistake.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yes, it happens, it does. I wish it didn't. It can be difficult and dislocating, but sometimes hires don't work out. Be difficult and dislocating, but sometimes hires don't work out.
Speaker 2:I think one difference, though, with your service is that when it does work out, you're still there. You're there over however long that person's in employment. You're there supporting them and supporting the business.
Speaker 3:Longest run we've done is 32 years.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, that kind of support can be invaluable, especially for somebody that's a little unsure or might not have done it before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I'm not sure all employers realise that. You know that that's the ongoing promise, basically of a service like the service you get from Nova.
Speaker 1:Martin, is there not, you know, access to government subsidies and things like that available for some employers? Absolutely.
Speaker 3:People should remember, though there's no such thing as a free lunch. If we're offering a subsidy, we're probably going to earn that subsidy. There are some really terrific things around that people should know about. Workplace modification, for example, is all paid for by the Commonwealth, so if the doors aren't wide enough for a wheelchair, we'll get a carpenter in to widen them. If you could work with a bit of technology if only you had it we can get that for you.
Speaker 2:If only you had it, we can get that for you.
Speaker 3:If the lawnmower needs a parole cage to protect the driver, we can get that for you. Assistive technology is all covered for under a government scheme called workplace modifications. Workplace mods can be. I'm not 100% sure I'm giving you the truth, but I won't be out by March. I think the maximum is $30,000. Wow.
Speaker 1:Definitely worth knowing. Yeah, it takes the pressure off as well if you're someone that's got those sort of questions. Martin, you talked about being a boss yourself and hiring yourself for your own team. You talked about when it might go wrong in a hire. Any advice for our listeners about what you do in those scenarios when things might go wrong?
Speaker 3:If it's early days, go with your gut. If you're thinking to yourself, I'm not sure this is going to work out. It's probably life killing. You Do what you think you should do. It's really important. You can engage organisations like mine and we'll do our very best for you. But it's your business and you know what you want. Where we say that's discrimination is often, in my view, just preference. I have a preference in this role to have people who are more mature. You built a business. You know how it works. I'm sure you're all right. Never agonize over a choice. Make it quickly. It's in everyone's interest. It could be the first day or the first month or two months. It's not settling with you. My advice is get out.
Speaker 2:Do you enjoy listening to our interview episodes? As you can tell, angela and I really enjoy making them, so we're always on the lookout for interesting people we can interview. If you or someone you know would make a great guest for us, please get in touch. You can contact us through our website at astrohrcomau or via LinkedIn. We're always happy to have a chat about what we might be able to discuss that can both inform our listeners and help you to reach a wider audience. Now let's get back to the episode. So, martin, as if being CEO of Nova wasn't enough to keep you busy, it was back in 2009 you decided to found the Film Festival.
Speaker 3:Yes, Focus on Ability.
Speaker 3:Yes, so tell us a bit more about Focus on Ability and what that's achieved over the years and it's still going on and what's happening this year. We'd love to hear about that. To 2009 and digital cameras were becoming commonplace and they gave the opportunity to the owner to make short films, and nowhere was that more obvious for me than in high schools. High school students year 11 and 12, sharp as a tack and also savvy with things technical, and so I put up a thousand. Well, nova put up a thousand dollars for the best five-minute film to 12 local high schools and we said we'll have a get-together, a show of the films and a wall of prize to the best film. We got a dozen entries. But what was really interesting was the impact that the filmmaking had on the school students, who were far more accepting of their peers that had a disability than they had been previously, because the theme of Focus on Ability is it challenges the filmmakers to make a short so five minutes or less film that highlights the achievement and the ability of originally students although that was to change that have a disability. The other impact, which I hadn't anticipated at all, was that it had a very positive impact on the way the students saw their peers, that it had a very positive impact on the way the students saw their peers. They became part of a filmmaking process in which those kids who were typically the students who had the most school cred from their peers began to say, no, you can't bully so-and-so, because we won't let you, and the hierarchy that is high schools began to produce champions for disability rights.
Speaker 3:We opened it up and put some more money in it, and a few years later I got a phone call from Paula Duncan. Oh yes, paula is, without doubt, my very best friend and I love her dearly, but she's got something I'll never have, and that's seven Logies. So she's got film credit as well. Polly is a person who cares very much for people with disabilities. She's of the Order of Australia for her work supporting people with disability, and Polly brought a level of professionalism that enabled us to expand. Then we went to see Julie Bishop. Paula got us in. We went to see Julie Bishop who said, no, you can't have any more money, which is tragedy, because I thought we might have been up for a quid or two. But she did give us access to Australia's consulates and embassies, which began to bring in large numbers of international students. Focusonabilitycomau will track the next couple of months as we prepare for a highlight red carpet event that showcases people with disabilities' culture and values from all over the world. Some of them are uniform, some of them are unusual, but they are all absolutely fabulous. I guarantee you that you will cry.
Speaker 3:One of the films came from Malawi. Wow, they put in a fabulous film called Mr Ability, and Mr Ability shows someone who's able to create works of art using a thread and his feet, because he doesn't have any hands, so he uses his feet to create artworks. We got involved with the filmmakers of Malawi, who were able to make stuff out of string and nails that we couldn't build with really expensive equipment. They have stayed with us over the years, but they came to us in the second year and said we've identified a business opportunity. Will you support us? It'll cost you $1,500.
Speaker 3:So we put up $1,500 and they rented two fields and planted watermelon. The watermelon took off. They made a decent quid on it, paid us back and for the next couple of years farmed watermelon. Then they came to us and said we, we want to farm watermelon, but we, we want to go gangbusters. We want to farm watermelon, but we want to go gangbusters. We want to get five acres, a whole lot more beyond. But it's been a heap of fun and all of that's live on our Facebook page. So get Nova Employment on Facebook. You'll see what we're doing in Malawi and in Ethiopia, because that expanded a bit as well.
Speaker 3:The Focus on Ability Short Film Festival enables us to reach people's hearts in relation to their attitude towards people with disability. That's lovely, and this year we're back. We're going to have 300-odd films. They'll be whittled down to I think it's September the 29th at the concourse in Chatswood. You just have to let us know you're coming because entry's free. There'll be some professional entertainment, there'll be some accidental entertainment and there'll be a night that you won't forget. Focus on abilitycom. You could look at films like family first. Uh, I'm marcus, but you look, you can look at any of the winners over the past 15 years. Walk away from the end of today feeling up-built because there's some great things happening and you can be part of it and we don't charge.
Speaker 1:It's lovely and it really is all throughout the world. I love that celebrating all that. It's great.
Speaker 3:Anytime you need me, I'm always good for you.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's been really inspirational talking to you. Anytime you need me, I'm always good for you. Oh, it's been really inspirational talking to you. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2:Okay, and we'll be putting the links in our show notes so that people will be able to access this information. Au revoir, thank you again. Merci, thanks, martin.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the Work Wonders podcast brought to you by Asta HR. Hit the subscribe button now to never miss an episode. And if you'd like to continue the conversation with us, you can find us over at astahrcomau. See you in the next episode. And if you'd like to continue the conversation with us, you can find us over at astahrcomau. See you in the next episode.
